Wireless ISPs (WISPs)

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swwifty
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:21 pm
Location: NE GA Mountains

Re: Wireless ISPs (WISPs)

Post by swwifty » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:42 pm

xdavidx wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:52 pm
Sorry, I'm not understanding this. If they got 110 Mbps aggregate, and if aggregate the total of the send speed plus the receive speed, when sending and receiving at the same time, then how is it 110 Mbps in one direction when not sending in the other direction at the same time?


Distance was too great, or needed to be pointed better, or the channel was too noisey from other systems around there? Why do you think it wasn't able to hit the higher modulation?


Hey, if they don't have any other way to get internet, then I suppose 10 Mbps would seem pretty darn nice. With just simple math and ignoring possible slowdowns from multiple users hitting it at the same time, and slowdowns from spreading the signal out over a wider beam width with sector antennas, that's 110 users over that 110 Mbps link (or more, depending on your answers about single direction speeds). In a sparsely populated area, that seems like a lot of people! :D

I agree about the 1 Gbps not being totally necessary. I am looking forward to faster speeds than my 10 Mbps DSL here, with my LTE setup, because:

A) I have multiple people in the house who stream video at the same time. We got rid of our satellite TV service a few years ago and all our TV is through streaming now. Not to mention Youtube use by my kids.
B) It allows for 4K video, which wants about 25 Mbps. I don't have any 4K TVs yet, but I'm sure in the future I will eventually.
C) You can never have enough speed for large things that need to be fully downloaded, like software installation files, software updates, non-streaming video files, tons of digital images (moving stuff around for home movies/photos), etc.

But if people are brand new to the internet, (A) and (B) probably aren't going to matter to them and (C) is more of a unique thing for someone who does a lot of computer work.

In my area, there are others who have access to cable (I don't), so it would be very difficult for me to compete with that if I wanted to set up a WISP. I could compete with the phone company on the DSL no problem, since the speeds are slow and the service is horrible. There might be some more rural areas here where they don't have access to cable. I'll have to ponder that a bit. I do know that I used to check for any WISPs that might have sprung up, every few months, praying that something other than DSL would become available to me. I did that for *years*! So discouraging to have no other options. I'm sure there are others who feel the same way.


So you'll have 2 sectors operating next to each other and each will have their own channel, so no interference, or will your 2 sectors be back to back and use the same frequency? I read up on the sync stuff before, but don't remember all the details. Is that where all the tower antennas send to all the customer antennas at the same time and then they all sync in sending the response packets back at the same time, so that you don't end up with collisions (or greatly reduce them)?

I imagine there is some latency added with that, but probably works out better than dealing with all the collisions.

How do you deal with non-customers who are in the path of your antennas and have home wifi setups? They get slowed down or have to know to move channels (assuming they aren't set for automatic channel assignment)? And then, for your customers, you tell them which channel(s) to avoid for their home wifi?
You can either have 110mbps transmit or receive (but not at the same time.) If you do it at the same "time" and the air time was split 50/50 then you'd have 55mbps transmit and 55mbps receive at the same time. Technically this is not at the same "time" as TDD can only receive or transmit at any given moment. It's just switches so fast between transmit and receive that it looks like its happening at the same time. I hope that makes sense. I'll likely be splitting most of the air time for download, since most users want higher download speeds than upload.

I basically just needed a stronger signal to get higher modulation. Real world though is always very different, so even though you might be getting a strong enough signal for 256 qam doesn't mean you can always hit it. I suspect when I have much higher quality sector antennas, and high gain (25dbi+) CPEs I'll be able to maintain 256 qam.

Users won't all be limited to plans at 10mbp. I'll have a combination of users with 10/25/50mbps download plans on a 20mhz channel. The reality is, most users don't use their max download all the time, so you can get away with this. Realistically each AP will probably have a max of 35ish CPEs connected. It really depends on how busy those users are, but I don't want to get too high in over subscription and cause issues.

I don't think it would be that hard for your to compete with cable. There is DSL companies and Cable companies around here, but they all typically have poor customer service and spotty connectivity.

That's correct on the frequency reuse. GPS sync really doesn't add any over head, it just helps reduce self interference so one can re-use channels.

Interference on the CPE side can be an issue. I'll providing the in house router/AP and will be able to make sure the inside frequencies don't conflict with the CPE outside. Neighbors will be outside of my control though, but a high gain CPE helps reduce any interference and noise. In the screenshots above you can see the noise floor on the station side (which was the simulated CPE in this case) was -97 which is super low. I also used the litebeams a bit on my property to connect my moms house to mine and easily saw a -100dbm noise floor cause homes are so spread out around here. In the city it might be a bit harder to get than, but we should be okay regardless.

xdavidx
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 4:04 pm

Re: Wireless ISPs (WISPs)

Post by xdavidx » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:25 am

swwifty wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:42 pm
If you do it at the same "time" and the air time was split 50/50 then you'd have 55mbps transmit and 55mbps receive at the same time.
Okay, I'm clear on what it is now. That's what I thought it was at first.
swwifty wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:42 pm
I'll likely be splitting most of the air time for download, since most users want higher download speeds than upload.
Makes sense. That will decrease latency too, as the TCP ACKs won't need to wait as long for their turn, with the GPS Sync.
swwifty wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:42 pm
Realistically each AP will probably have a max of 35ish CPEs connected. It really depends on how busy those users are, but I don't want to get too high in over subscription and cause issues.
That's still a pretty good number.
swwifty wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:42 pm
I don't think it would be that hard for your to compete with cable. There is DSL companies and Cable companies around here, but they all typically have poor customer service and spotty connectivity.
Cable here starts at 50 Mbps and goes up from there, with 100, 150, 500 and 1000 levels as well. They do have poor customer service and sometimes have technical issues, but for the most part, it just works. The DSL here is 6, 10, or 22, real world speeds. But that's if you are close enough to the central office. A lot of people are sub 1 Mbps, I'm guessing. And I have to believe those people don't have cable as an option, so I probably could do it for those people.
swwifty wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:42 pm
Interference on the CPE side can be an issue. I'll providing the in house router/AP and will be able to make sure the inside frequencies don't conflict with the CPE outside.
Ah, that's cool. Fewer variables to worry about. And if you give them 2.4 GHz and 5.8 GHz on the inside WAP, the 2.4 won't interfere at all and will give them good coverage throughout the house and outside.
swwifty wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:42 pm
Neighbors will be outside of my control though, but a high gain CPE helps reduce any interference and noise. In the screenshots above you can see the noise floor on the station side (which was the simulated CPE in this case) was -97 which is super low. I also used the litebeams a bit on my property to connect my moms house to mine and easily saw a -100dbm noise floor cause homes are so spread out around here. In the city it might be a bit harder to get than, but we should be okay regardless.
Are you saying you'll have higher gain on the receiving end (customer end), so it can reach out to hear the sector antennas, and the non-customer neighbor's won't hear the signal, since you aren't blasting as much from the sector antenna side of the links? I never thought about doing that. Makes sense if you don't need high gain on both ends of the links.

How do these antennas, frequencies and radios handle foliage? Can you go through a bunch of trees at that higher frequency, or does it drastically cut down on distance?

swwifty
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:21 pm
Location: NE GA Mountains

Re: Wireless ISPs (WISPs)

Post by swwifty » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:05 am

xdavidx wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:25 am

Are you saying you'll have higher gain on the receiving end (customer end), so it can reach out to hear the sector antennas, and the non-customer neighbor's won't hear the signal, since you aren't blasting as much from the sector antenna side of the links? I never thought about doing that. Makes sense if you don't need high gain on both ends of the links.

How do these antennas, frequencies and radios handle foliage? Can you go through a bunch of trees at that higher frequency, or does it drastically cut down on distance?
A higher gain CPE will help reduce the strength of neighboring wifi AP, even if they are on the same channel. This is because the beam is focused tightly and aimed at the AP on the tower. The sector (AP on the tower) still covers a wide area and could interfere with a neighbors AP if they are using the same channel, but not very likely as the signals are so weak by the time they get inside a home from a AP on a tower.

5ghz doesn't handle foliage very well at all. Essentially all customers on 5ghz frequencies need to be clear line of sight.

xdavidx
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 4:04 pm

Re: Wireless ISPs (WISPs)

Post by xdavidx » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:47 pm

swwifty wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:05 am
5ghz doesn't handle foliage very well at all. Essentially all customers on 5ghz frequencies need to be clear line of sight.
That would be my biggest issue here. Relatively flat, but some hills, and no mountains to allow for beaming across open air from high points.

Who puts the antennas on the towers? Do you do that, or do the tower owners require that their people do that?

swwifty
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:21 pm
Location: NE GA Mountains

Re: Wireless ISPs (WISPs)

Post by swwifty » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:53 pm

xdavidx wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:47 pm
That would be my biggest issue here. Relatively flat, but some hills, and no mountains to allow for beaming across open air from high points.

Who puts the antennas on the towers? Do you do that, or do the tower owners require that their people do that?
You'd be surprised, I bet you could find some good spots for APs to cover a big area.

I'll be hiring a company to climb the tower and install equipment that is certified to do so with the tower owners/company.

xdavidx
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 4:04 pm

Re: Wireless ISPs (WISPs)

Post by xdavidx » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:30 pm

swwifty wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:53 pm
I'll be hiring a company to climb the tower and install equipment that is certified to do so with the tower owners/company.
Do you give them the angles to mount things at, or do you have the antennas pre-angled on a mounting system, or do you do an active test with them up there with them adjusting before they come back down?

swwifty
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:21 pm
Location: NE GA Mountains

Re: Wireless ISPs (WISPs)

Post by swwifty » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:34 pm

xdavidx wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:30 pm
Do you give them the angles to mount things at, or do you have the antennas pre-angled on a mounting system, or do you do an active test with them up there with them adjusting before they come back down?
with the PTMP sector antennas they will just set them at a azimuth and a down tilt.

The backhaul PTP parabolic dishes will have to be actively aimed while someone is on the tower.

xdavidx
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 4:04 pm

Re: Wireless ISPs (WISPs)

Post by xdavidx » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:05 pm

swwifty wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:34 pm
The backhaul PTP parabolic dishes will have to be actively aimed while someone is on the tower.
So do you take part in that process (telling them where they are at by you using the ubiquiti software), or do they use their own equipment that is locked onto the dishes such that they know the dishes are aimed at each other?

swwifty
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:21 pm
Location: NE GA Mountains

Re: Wireless ISPs (WISPs)

Post by swwifty » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:27 pm

xdavidx wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:05 pm
So do you take part in that process (telling them where they are at by you using the ubiquiti software), or do they use their own equipment that is locked onto the dishes such that they know the dishes are aimed at each other?
I'd be communicating in real time with the guys on the tower. I'd be on the other end of the link adjusting, as the other end of the link in this case will be on the roof of my office.

xdavidx
Posts: 267
Joined: Tue May 28, 2019 4:04 pm

Re: Wireless ISPs (WISPs)

Post by xdavidx » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:14 pm

swwifty wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:27 pm
I'd be communicating in real time with the guys on the tower. I'd be on the other end of the link adjusting, as the other end of the link in this case will be on the roof of my office.
Ah, so the office antenna is the first antenna after the fiber comes into the picture?

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